Win More Productions Proportional Payout for Oct & Nov Races

[ITDASH]

i understand where your commimg from also but with out making everyone run 2x the first being a "qualifer" so to speak there is no other wayto do it even at that you would have folks sandbagging to qualify  in a lower D  hoping to come in and blow the doors off that d in the race itself, the same probs that occured in the novice system dishonesty, you cant hold a race for  3 and 4 d horses  why? because some one is always going to be dishonest and say my horse is a 3 d horse when in reality its a 2 d or even a 1 d horse and come in and try to walk off with it  ive seen it done to many times  even in big novice races

[jropergirl]

So I've read thru the posts, and have listened carefully. AND while I understand that they are trying to keep the 3D entries from buying feed for the 1d entries I must say I am not sure I like it.  My horse is starting to hit the top of the 1d on a more consistent basis, and frankly, I've been looking forward to going to a tough race making the smoking run that I know we can make, and getting that larger check.  This payout system probably won't keep me from coming, but I can't say I'm thrilled with it.

[Dailyjld]

Just thinking...
Reading about this proposed proportional payout makes me pause.
So, zipping up the flame suit & thinking out loud...
It seems now that a 3D horse will most likely become the high money earner at these races. Maybe I'm still in the "old school" mentality but I believe a horse outrunning 300+ entries should be rewarded for doing so. I'm not berating the 2D, 3D, 4D and so on-it's just that the 1D placing horses are the only ones, in my opinion that earn their position that day. All others are more dependent on that thing we call LUCK. Not saying the 2/3/4/5/D didn't work as hard or deserve it, but something came in to play to determine their placing that day more so than talent, speed or whatever. It is something that no one has any control over. Luck plays a part in every division, but it seems more so after the 1D.
I've heard all the arguments against graduated payout.
The entries would not be as large without the lower Ds entries & so the 1D would not have as much money in the pot. True, but years ago the lower D entries had no opportunity at all to run at the kind of payout available these days.
I know it costs the same to feed, enter & haul the “4D” horse as it does the “1D.” But the 1D horse is at the top of his AND everyone else's game. There are many, many that will never be, can never be a 1D. But that is the beauty of the 4/5D format, there is a place for every one to do the best he can do. And, hopefully get financial reward with the satisfaction of doing your best.
Yes, there are usually less 1D entries than any other division, but generally receive the largest share of the pot. That is self explanatory. The top is always the hardest to achieve yet should be the most sought after. That is why the 1D should be something to aim towards. The 1D winner is the horse that determines where everyone else places. Why would you want to penalize that competitor for being better than the average? What happens when that spectacular run is made, setting it apart from the field & only a few qualify for the 1D. That run will be severely penalized because so few fees will be put in the division.
With this payout, I wonder if some of the top horses will begin to go elsewhere. Remember, the caliber of the 1D determines all other Ds.
I worry that no longer will the goal be to be the fastest but to be lucky enough to fall into that D that the majority of all the entries fell into. Fell into due to that one run in the 1D. And that run probably won't even make the most money that day.
You might think I have these thoughts because I’m a 1D barrel racer and you would be wrong. It would hurt to see a horse/rider combination put together a one in a million run or to have that once in a lifetime horse and not be rewarded for it as much as the team that was “lucky enough to make a mistake” and be the high money earner for the race. I still believe in competition.
However, I applaud Destry and the Winmore crew for trying something new. Barrel racing is evolving. This may be the way of the future. I’m afraid we may lose sight of the purpose of competition, trying to be the best we can be.
Like I said, I was “just thinking.”

Amen..........I again with you...........I think if you try this, you will hurt the barrel race industry........This barrel race was setup to help people that was not able to run at tougher competition........plus it made this barrel race like a family reunion...........If you have some tough horses there and they make a super run, then god bless them......They deserve it......Let not penalized there ability, plus you will never try to accomplished your ability to improve with you horse......The ideas of running with these good horses, is to help you acceived with your horse.......If you run the good horses away, then I belived your entry will goes dowm......Not counting the cost of fuel going up.......We need to keep in mind that barrel racing may goes down hill, due to cost of everything.......So, in my opinion, we need to make it where everyone can still come to these barrel racing and enjoyed themselves........So, I feel they need to decreased the stall fee, processing, and entry fee, so that we can still have some place to go.........Before long we may not have any places to go...........So before this barrel race have started, you would only see about 30 -40 horses running at one placed......now we are seeing 400-1600 horses running.......So, think and look at this before you start changing up ..........Laura

[Andie Guess]

I have to agree with Roadrunner and BK49. If I owned a 1D horse I wouldn't go to this race. #1 What is going to happen are the 2D people will be the 1D people and so on, the elite will not waste their time. I want to know where I stand, the only way I know is the fastest horse at the race tells me how well I am coming along. This race would not honestly tell me where I stand. If you want to have more racers spread the money out go 6D. If you want to reward your majority, pay less holes in 1D, more holes in 2,3,4,5D with the holes in 1D paying big money. Reason I say, make it a dream to hit 1D pay scale make 1 D rich. Life ain't fair, you only get successful with hard work and dedication. Don't tell me that the hours I am working on my horse to make him 1D is not going to be rewarding in $$$$$. This is how you get fat and lazy, no drive to be the best. If you are in any other division than 1D, then who put you there, right that 1D horse and he deserves his reward. You KNOW who is the best right now, with this payout you won't.

[Mandi]

Personally...I don't like it any more than I like equal payout...but what the heck. Whatever draws runners. You never know who will or will not show up so you never really know how many will be in that 1D.

I think they should have a spot on the entry form for you to mark what D you "plan" to be in. Put that entries money towards that division.

You wouldn't believe how many 2-3-4 and even 5D runners that are either on a horse that couldn't get in the 1D to save their life OR the rider couldn't hang on to a real 1D horse if they had to...REALLY think they are going to win the 1D that day.

Okay - so my above thoughts are probably going to get flamed. I'm sure some of you other ladies have spoken to some people like what I am talking about. Kinda like the folks that are entering rodeo after rodeo and running 2 or more seconds off EVERY time.

[Done That]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  The payoff has been working........why change it.

It was designed to give the people on less competitve horses or who are not as competitive a rider, a chance to win money.  Not so that the majority can get the most money.  This is a COMPETITIVE sport......let's keep it that way.  The fastest should get the most.

And I agree......you can't have designated D's because of the cheaters.  But I talked to Talmadge when this was first started and he told me it is "foolproof".  You cannot, with any accuracy, cheat the system.  You might coast sometime and hit in the lower D's and win money, but you never know when someone is going to make that "flawless" run and blow the doors off the whole thing and change the D's.  So you just have to make your run and take where you fall.  It's the fairest thing going for a large group of horses.

[mammadearborn]

okay folks, I said I wasn't going to put my 2 cents worth into this, but here goes anyway.  Everything here is JMO.  I have always been a strong advocate for equal payout.  Okay, just continue to read, please.  Recently retired, until then wa working 12 hour rotating shifts standing on my feet on the concrete doing very physical labor.  At my age (60) when I got off work I was to darned tired to work my horse.  Barrel racing is my hobby, not my vocation.  I'm not a pro, I'm a wannabe, a working stiff trying to keep body and soul together.  Not everyone can afford to buy a 1D horse.  I take the best care of my horse as I can, ciro, massage therapist, top of the line feed, etc, etc, my expenses are right up there with the  best of them.  So why should I be penalized at the pay window?  85% of all barrelracers fall in the 3,4 & 5 D's.  Since another poster already mentioned Talmadge I feel free to say I was irate when he took 5% off the 4 several years ago and added it to the 1.  He is a producer and a competitor and only rides 1D horses.  I felt he was only lining his own pockets with this move.  I vowed then to never again enter a race he was producing.  My 1 woman protest.  I totally disagree with the statement that the 1D horses take the biggest risks, there have also been 2,3,4 &5D horses injured, they just aren't as well known.  Not every horse w/ 4 legs can run as fast as Rooster, but that doesn't mean it's not running it's heart out.  Okay off my soap box now.

[Pam Cantwell]

Food for thought:  1-D people decide to quit coming because there is less monetary incentive. They have all gone to the rodeo now. The true 2-D horses now move into the 1-D. The 2-D contestants now think they own a true 1-D horse and of course advertise to sell them as 1-D horses. They now are getting less money in the 1-D too so they decide to go to the rodeo and the true 3-D horses move into the 1-D positions, etc. etc. etc.

[doc o lena bar]

Ok, I don't know where to begin.  I kinda have mixed feeling, but then again I don't.  This payout is not how all races are going to be run.  You have the choice to enter or not.  At least you will know up front how things are laid out.  Its self explanitory.  Those that don't like it don't have to come and run.  Who knows, there might be 200 runners that run in the 1D that race.  No one will know until the last horse runs.  I for one will continue to try to make these shows.  I'm going out there to do the best I can no matter where I fall.  Suppose I win the 1D, I don't get the biggest check that is handed out that day, so what.  I still won the race and that speaks for itself.  I can go home knowing in my head that I had the best and fastest horses that day.  Its not always about money.  90% of those entering these races have a full time job that pays their bills or have a spouce that has a good job that pays the bills.  Only about 10% of the people entering horses do it for a living.  I do it for the fun and to maybe get to that top spot someday and be able to be consistant enough to stay there for a while and maybe someday fullfill one of my goals of getting my permit to be able to run at Mesquit.  Thats all i would like to do.  I don't care for the rodeo scene.  Too much on the road time.  So lets just look at the big picture here.

I think all the Win More crew is doing here is what we have all complained about over that past several years.  Too many times I have read a post about the D system and how people don't like it that the lower D horses don't get more money. From entry fees being the same, feed, training, and etc........  This producers listened to ya'll, and has done something about it.  Lets give it a try and see how it works. 

Like I said, to many of us, its not about the money.  It about where you place and having that to carry with you and know that you placed where you did.  I am going to try my best to support this payout as long as I can afford to go and run.  Even with the payout change, that doesn't mean that I'm going to place at all.  I have been one of those that falls between the cracks for several years.  Once in a blue moon will I fall where I need to the get a check. 

Desty, you guys keep up the great work, and for those contestants that complained over the years about the 1D getting more and they thought that the lower D's show get the same, ......Thank you for listening to what the majority of the contestants wanted.

See ya'll in Glen Rose.

[Done That]

I totally disagree with the statement that the 1D horses take the biggest risks, there have also been 2,3,4 &5D horses injured, they just aren't as well known.  Not every horse w/ 4 legs can run as fast as Rooster, but that doesn't mean it's not running it's heart out.  Okay off my soap box now.

OK, I have to address this.  Yes, a horse can be hurt going any speed.  But when you add speed to hard turning, you are putting strains on joints, ligaments, bones, etc.  That is why racehorses running those blistering fractions (going straight) break down.  Anytime you use yourself hard, you are more apt and in bigger jeopardy of being injured.  Ask any sports medicine person or better yet, ask a Veterinarian.  I'm not trying to put anyone down.....but this is a competitive sport.......and yes it costs the same to haul a lower D horse then the 1D and they are loved just as much........but excellence should be that......excellence.......doesn't matter what sport and should be compensated.
JMHO    >PEACE<

[doc o lena bar]

Well with that said, than those that have a problem with this new payout need to pick and choose the races they enter.  I for one am not going to let alittle thing like this get in the way of my enjoying myself, getting to see my friends and getting my adrinaline flowing.  I work all week long and need some relaxing time and this does it for me.  Its just two races anyway.  No one said that the Barrelracing Industry is dead set on using this formula for the rest of time.  Just these two races.  So Maybe these two races those that don't like it won't come and we don't have to listen to them complain the whole time they are there.  Less stress on all of us.

[Rodeo Mom]

I think having the 3D make more money than the 1D is not the answer we were looking for.  Competition means the winner gets the goods.
Maybe to pay 1 or 2 less holes and change the percentages to make the moneys come out more even yet in a sliding fashion would be the center ground for everyone.  Maybe even a set amount for 1st in each division and percentages for 2nd - whatever places.  Destry and Corky are leaders in production of big barrel races and I am sure they will work this thing out to make everyone share in the wealth and have that winning feeling.  I find it hard to think the 3D would win more than the 1D. I think our warm fuzzy feeling for winning the whole race would be compromised  However I do think all money earners should go home feeling they were not compensated for the position they placed.  
We can all thank NBHA for the three division split they orginally set and bringing barrelracing to the level it has become today.  Their system seems to withstand the test of time.  With minor changes they are still running a pretty big ship.  I think fine tuning a well working machine is sometimes better than taking a plunge on a new venture.  On the other hand sometimes change is great if it benifits everyone playing the game.  
This is only my opinion and maybe some ground to dig around in and make better solutions.  Anything new is going to have ups and downs before it is perfect.
See you at Glen Rose and Waco and many more to come.

[Pam Cantwell]

I think it's great to discuss all of the pros and cons of new ideas in the sport of barrel racing. It doesn't mean you do or don't want to go. It helps to get other opinions so that if there are any kinks they can get worked out beforehand they can be addressed. Barrel racing is something we all love and discussing changes openly is good for all of us. I'm very neutral on this new payout right now. Not sure whether I like it or not yet. Just throwing out some things to think about.

[Dailyjld]

I think it's great to discuss all of the pros and cons of new ideas in the sport of barrel racing. It doesn't mean you do or don't want to go. It helps to get other opinions so that if there are any kinks they can get worked out beforehand they can be addressed. Barrel racing is something we all love and discussing changes openly is good for all of us. I'm very neutral on this new payout right now. Not sure whether I like it or not yet. Just throwing out some things to think about.

Very well said..........I think that is what this board is about........Is to get everyone opinion...........Your hand are not tied......So you do not have to go if it not right for you........I am like Pam.......I am neutral, but can throw the thought of what I think..............laura

[doc o lena bar]

Ok, last year I placed 6th in the 1D and got a check for $15.60 where the winner of the 2D, 3D, and 4D all got a check for $106.60...........So what, I still placed in the 1D.  Let me explain.  I have never in my life had a horse that was 1D little lone 2D.  Never ridden one before I bought and trained the mare I am riding now.  So for us to place up there in the higher D's 1D, 2D, means more to me that the whole money thing.  I know I am probably different than alot of people, but I'm not in it to get rich.  Its not about the money to me.

Pam you are right about discussing things on here.  I have just seen too many of these go South and its like beating a dead horse, if you know what I mean. 
Who knows how this will turn out.  Sorry I get so deffensive when it comes to payout.  I guess I'm just tired of people complaining all the time about not getting enough money for where they placed.  I guess if I was one of those top runners all the time I could see more clearly.  All though I have been running in the top 2D, bottom 1D, and even top 1D, but not consitant yet.  I'll just give this a whirl and see how it turns out.